facts about SRHPs in the UK
July 24th, 2011 § 8 Comments
I’m reluctant for this revealing thread on the Working HPRs forum to quietly fade away, so I will repeat some of the most significant facts here. I stress that these are facts and that therefore they cannot be said to be biassed, unfair, libellous or prejudicial. The vast majority of this information is freely and publicly available from the Kennel Club, from Mate Select, and in the Breed Record Supplements. Other information I have received via email from the Slovakian breed club.
- Since 2003, there have been 409 KC registered SRHPs in the UK (excluding the 5 original Emmaclan imports). This means that there are now more dogs registered in the UK, than in their native Slovakia. To restate: We are breeding these dogs more prolifically in the UK than they are being bred in their country of origin. For more information on the numbers of dogs in various countries and on the number bred in Slovakia, see this translation of a German article.
- 47% of these 409 dogs bred in the UK since 2003, have been bred by Stormdancer or Rosetinted, and so it can be said that these two kennels are, between them, responsible for breeding almost half of all SRHPs registered in the UK.
- Despite there being 13 early imports, not all of these dogs were bred from – only 8 were. Consequently, these 409 KC reg SRHPs are all descended from 8 imports.
- Furthermore, of these 8 dogs, many were siblings. For example, the 13 originally imported dogs were: The Emmaclan imports: Amie and Amaretto von Kapffelsen (siblings); and Spek, Santal and Supa zo Sorosa (siblings). The Aucassin imports: Setsuhen, Shiro, Sora, Shika & Sholto de l’Etang aux Colverts (siblings). The Stormdancer imports: Evar and Eny Kaicul (siblings) and Argo od Vitalosa. So, the 8 of these imports which were bred from were not unrelated, with different pedigrees: Siblings have identical pedigrees and carry almost identical genetic material. The 8 dogs used probably equate to about 3-4 different pedigrees. So, in fact, those 409 KC reg SRHPs are all descended from 3-4 different pedigrees.
- Even then, those 3-4 different pedigrees were not totally different. Many of them contained the same dogs.
- Compare the UK situation to the situation in Slovakia, as discussed in this article: There are just under 400 dogs registered in Slovakia. These dogs are the product of 12 stud dogs and 18 bitches, making a total of 30 breeding dogs, with varying pedigrees. Slovakia, being the country of origin, is also permitted to breed SRHPs to the foundation breeds (Weimaraner, GWP and Cesky Fousek), enabling them access to new blood and lines instantly. That is: The UK has produced slightly more SRHPs than the country of origin, from a fraction of the gene pool.
- The three most popular UK stud dogs in the breed are, in order of popularity:
- Argo od Vitalosa (Stormdancer); 20 litters. Argo od Vitalosa has, alone, sired 161 puppies. He has a COI of 18.9%.
- Aucassin Tonto (Rosetinted); 11 litters and a COI of 20.3%.
- Evar Kaicul (Stormdancer); 10 litters and (as discussed below) carrying lines which have been banned in Slovakia, due to serious health defects.
- Aucassin Tonto (Rosetinted), the 2nd most popular stud in the breed, has a COI (breeding co-efficiency index, or measure of inbreeding) of 20.3%. The breed average is currently 11.5%. Litters should not be bred, which have a COI of 20.3%, let alone the result of such matings being used as hugely popular stud dogs in a minority breed where genetic diversity is already a problem. Even as I type, Rosetinted have 2 litters on the ground, both out of Aucassin Tonto. One of them is out of a bitch which is not even hip-scored (Abreast Yellow Dandy).
- Evar Kaicul, the 3rd most popular stud in the breed, is descended from a pudelpointer line (Pine Ridge Fred/Alf z Bitesska): His grandfather is Alf z Bitesska. The Slovakian breed club have suspended all brood bitches and studs from these lines; these lines are now not present in Slovakian stock and have been successfully eliminated in the country of origin. The Slovakian breed club believe that dogs descended from Pine Ridge Fred/Alf z Bitesska have the last two ribs fused to the breast bone, meaning they are unable to move. This causes dogs descending from these lines difficulties in breathing and physical endurance. This fault was still present at least 2 generations later, resulting in the decision to eliminate the stock from the Slovakian breeding programme. This was no small decision and reflects how serious this condition was believed to be, by the Slovakian breed club. However, Evar Kaicul, carrying these lines, had already been imported to the UK by this time. It is of some concern that Evar Kaicul is even now at stud in the UK. He has already sired 10 litters and 7 of his progeny have been hip-scored – which is an indication that they will be bred from: His genes, banned from the Slovakian breeding programme, are now unavoidably part of UK SRHP stock.
- Argo od Vitalosa (the most popular stud in the UK, sire of 20 litters), was one of a litter of 5 puppies. This litter, born in Slovakia, was inspected at 6 wks old by Michal Urban, the secretary of the Slovakian breed club – all litters bred in Slovakia are inspected. Although Argo od Vitalosa’s teeth were fine, three of his siblings had severe underbites – a condition which is often hereditary. Bite issues are a known issue within the breed, with instances both in Slovakia and in the UK. It is a concern that a dog from lines that have definitely produced this fault should have dominated the UK gene pool so heavily, siring 161 out of 409 registered UK SRHPs. Not only that, but he has a COI of 18.9%, when the breed average is 11.5%.
- As is evident, there are causes for concern regarding all 3 of the most popular stud dogs in the breed. If these dogs were just 3 dogs out of even 15 stud dogs, then it would matter much less to the breed. The stud dog duties would have been shared around those 15 dogs and each dog’s individual contribution to the gene pool would have been much less. Should any problems crop up, it would then be comparatively easy to eliminate them. Instead, however, these 3 dogs have been repeatedly and excessively bred into the UK SRHP population.
- New lines have recently been imported by Stormdancer, by way of Beno, Britt and Bella Meskov Dvor. This is excellent. However, again it should be noted that these are 3 siblings, representing only 1 new pedigree for the UK. Aucassin plans to import a stud dog out of a recent litter in Slovakia – however this pup is out of a dam bred by Aucassin, and therefore is only 50% new genetic material for the breed. These are good moves, but no where near the scale of what is needed for the breed.
- The SRHP Club’s Kennel Club ‘health co-ordinator’, whose task it is to liaise with the KC on issues of health in the breed, is also the owner of two of the most prolific stud dogs in the breed (Stormdancer). As owners are supposed to report health issues to the health co-ordinator, there is obviously a conflict of interest if the health co-ordinator owns two of the most popular stud dogs in the breed – which are likely to have sired many puppies reported on.
- There are currently no health requirements for the breed under the KC Accredited Breeder Scheme. This means that someone can be an ‘Accredited Breeder’ without even having had their dogs’ hip-scored. Indeed, this is how Rosetinted can be KC Accredited Breeders, yet currently have a litter out of an un-hipscored dog (Abreast Yellow Dandy). It is the UK breed club which is supposed to advise the KC on what the health requirements are for the ABS.
- Neither of the two most prolific breeders (Rosetinted and Stormdancer) compete with their dogs in any way other than conformation. Therefore the dogs’ working abilities go untested before breeding. It is a well-known fact that, genetically speaking, if you’re not actively breeding for a trait, you are breeding against it. (Because you are leaving it to chance that the dog possesses this trait.) It is insufficient to attest to a dog’s working ability based on non-working behaviour witnessed by its owner (i.e. ‘my dog loves to hunt for rabbits on walks, therefore he has good working instincts, therefore we can breed from him’). Just as those who show will understand that it’s not enough to say ‘I think my dog looks nice – therefore it must be a good specimen and worth breeding from’. A dog needs to be worked, and it needs some form of independent and unbiassed assessment of working ability in order to be said to have any.
- Finally, there are already anecdotal reports of serious health conditions afflicting dogs in the breed. These include accounts of discospondylitis; gastrointestinal infections of campylobacter and giardia throughout early puppyhood; severe and debilitating bite faults requiring surgery; undiagnosed chronic pain, often on rising from a lying position – this has received various diagnoses from sterile meningitis to discospondylitis, but the symptoms are remarkably similar, despite different diagnoses; epilepsy; alopecia (hair loss/bald areas); and several cases of severe hip-dysplacia requiring complete hip replacements.
Where do we go from here?
The following is not factual, and is my opinion:
- Import more stud dogs from Slovakia. The Pet Passport scheme is changing in January 2012, so it should be possible to import puppies at around 15wks instead of the current 10 months. It is perfectly possible for a ‘pet’ owner to import a puppy – don’t think that this is only an option for those ‘serious’ people in the breed. If you are looking for a puppy in the UK at the moment, be aware that you are likely lining the pockets of those who are over-breeding this breed. Do you want to further support such breeders? If puppies were not in such great demand, a clear message would be conveyed to UK breeders to stop breeding. Indeed, there are signs that the UK market has reached saturation point at this stage: There has recently been an entire litter of 8 SRHPs abandoned at the RSPCA Brighton, because their breeder was unable to sell them. Some puppies in litters bred by Ansona and Panoply in March and April of this year have yet to find homes, according to Champdogs, despite now being 17wks and 12wks respectively. A litter of Aucassin puppies whelped in January have, all seven, been kept by the breeder ‘as there was very little interest’. Our own provisional list fell apart leading to our decision not to breed Grey. This should send a clear message to UK breeders that the market is no longer there, for SRHPs going to pet homes. If you are looking for a puppy in Slovakia, I’d be happy to put you in touch with a couple of Slovakian breeders who can help.
- Slow down the rate of breeding. We are breeding far too prolifically for the small gene pool available in the UK. If breeders cannot find a suitable stud dog which they are satisfied is free from faults, and results in a low COI, then they should not breed! All breeders are the guardians and custodians of the breed. Individual breeding decisions may seem unimportant in the scheme of things, but the cumulative effect of all these individual decisions is dire. Know what the overall picture of the breed is at the current time. Consider proposed matings in the light of that bigger picture. Breeders do not have to have litters from their bitches.
- If you must breed, consider going abroad to use a stud dog. The existing lines in the UK have been excessively overused for such a small gene pool. There are many studs from new lines in Slovakia and one in the Netherlands. With the Pet Passport scheme, it is possible to fly or drive a bitch abroad for mating. If it seems too much effort to go abroad, then perhaps this minority breed is not one for you to be breeding.
- Hip-test all breeding stock and do not breed from those dogs with scores over the average of 10. (There are instances of bitches with above average scores being bred to studs, also with above average scores. If breeders are going to claim that their bitch is exceptional enough to breed from her, despite her poor hip-test results, then she should at least be bred to a stud with a below-average score. If such a stud isn’t available, then the question about whether she should be bred at all is raised.) Stud dogs should not be mated to unscored bitches. (There are instances of some of these top-three studs being bred to unscored bitches.)
- Breeders should endorse the KC registrations of ALL offspring: One way to widen the gene pool is to stop the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation of UK-only dogs.
- Check the dentition of all breeding stock and ensure bites are correct. If buying a puppy, check the teeth of other puppies in the litter and not only the puppy you purchase (especially if you will maybe want to breed from that puppy). There are currently bite issues in the breed, cropping up amongst different lines. The result of bite problems can be traumatic for both dog and owner, as discussed on this thread.
- We should not breed from dogs with Evar Kaicul in their pedigree, because we should follow the lead given by the country of origin and aim to eliminate these lines from UK stock.
- The only reason, in any breed of dog, to be bringing more puppies into the world, is to better the breed. To better the breed, you need to be objectively assessing breeding stock so that only the best are bred from. That means – the BEST – not breeding every example of the breed, willy-nilly. This is a working breed, with working instincts which have been carefully developed and bred for, over decades in Slovakia, through selective breeding. To believe that we can maintain these working instincts whilst abandoning any testing or selection for them is simply wrong – we cannot. These dogs have been bred to hunt all day. This is what differentiates the breed from a grey labradoodle. To preserve the breed, working qualities must be assessed before breeding. Even if you are reluctant to compete, ask your friends what they think of your dog’s performance on shoots or when you rough-shoot. Get unbiassed opinions and try to be objective. If you don’t shoot or work your dog, my opinion is that you really should not be breeding this breed because you cannot assess these qualities – and traits which are not selected for are (it has been proven) selected against. You cannot claim that your dog likes to hunt rabbits on walks, and therefore has a good nose, and therefore can be bred from. Just as you cannot claim that you think your dog looks nice, so you should breed from her. You need unbiassed, independent assessments of your dog’s working ability. If you want to breed from your SRHP, it is your duty to get involved in working him/her.
Terrific post! Very informative and well presented. I hope UK breeders take heed.
I find this very concerning in a breed so young in the UK Jo. I think your efforts are admirable and I fully support your stance. When dealing with a rare breed in the UK it’s often difficult to get people to understand the importance of providing solid foundations for the breed. A breed built on anything else is heading for disaster. I have found this with my own breed the Bracco Italiano. There are some people who really do have the best interests of the breed at heart but generally it’s been my experience that since the breed came off the Import Register all thought about working ability has gone out the window and the show side has flourished. Thankfully the inbreeding is not happening in my breed as is happening in yours and I find this truly appalling that a breed so young. Thankfully the breed has you to fight for it; I wish you the very best in all your efforts. Your post is very informative and quite mind-blowing. I once considered an SRHP, you may remember, but thankfully I did not go down that route. So sad and such a beautiful breed too….. best wishes. Annie xx
Oh how I wish I had had access to this BEFORE I paid (in hard cash and heartache) for a pup from Rosetinted!
Our pup was returned after two vets advised that his bite (and other problems) would involve months of treatment and would set us back a small fortune…sadly the KC acredited breeder scheme is letting the bying public down badly by supporting what amounts to puppy farming
Hi – Would your pup have been Cyril, by any chance?
hiya thankyuou for a very informative read, we have one of the gorgeous pups from rspca louis (hagan) was 1yr old last weekend – we have had no followup in 9 months from the rspca at all – and as we said we are lucy having had and bred woring lab pedigree gundogs we knew what we were getting into – but they had no idea at the centre even how big they would get
size to us isnt an issue and he is a very gorgeous loving pet and adores our 5 under 12s and vice versa x x
Only read your post recently and was shocked! I have a 3 yr old Evar daughter. She is absolutely fine, thank goodness. I don’t think I would have been brave enough to take the risk of getting a Slovak if I had read your blog first!!
Shocked and fascinated to read your post as I have a 3 yr old Evar daughter. Luckily she is perfectly healthy and spayed!! Would have had to think long and hard about getting a Slovak if I had read your blog first! Thanks for sharing the information.
Seem to have commented twice!!! Not very good at this sort of thing!